Hello… you.
There has been some deliberation on what to call this part of the site. I feel quite smug that due to my ineptitude at anything other than generally spouting off, I have been given permission to do just that here. I don’t know how regular these posts will be but they are going to take the form of me basically talking about stuff and you, hopefully, telling me what you think. Fingers crossed, eh?
So, what shall I talk about? Yeah, like I hadn’t made my mind up ages ago, like I haven’t got a fucking list. Well, for this first installment, I want to talk about: Geography.
As those of you who know me are aware, I’m not from down here. I come from a place in the north of England famous for having the biggest Next store in the world – Manchester. Now I’m not going to be such a dickhead that I’m going to do a ‘my city is better than your city’ comparison, one: because that is the civic equivalent of saying my dad is harder than your dad; and two: because I’ve done that countless times before AND ALWAYS WON HANDS DOWN.
Instead, I’m more interested in the ‘why?’ of geography; particularly its effect on music. The question I’m asking is why do certain places sound the way they do?
For the sake of neutrality, I’ll begin with the great city of Sheffield, and more specifically its propensity for putting a roof over the head of some of the finest electronic music to come from… well anywhere really. To keep things focused, I’ll kick it off with the wonderful (and now ironically London based) Warp Records: Why did Warp happen in Sheffield – why in the late 80s and early 90s did South Yorkshire suddenly go bleep?
The answer, any pop historian will tell you, is that Sheffield has a rich heritage of electronic/avant-pop music. You had Cabaret Voltaire, The Human League et al who were dicking around with synths and computers ages ago. It follows therefore that Warp Records would flourish in a city where such noises would not be alien.
But I say again, why? Why was the music scene of that Human League/Cabaret Voltaire Sheffield so drawn to skewed-pop and machine music in the first place?
Sociologists might go deeper and look to the industrial heritage of the place, as if all those Steel City foundries poured molten metal into the veins of the people. They would extrapolate that the sounds the populace would love were bound to be industrial – man made and inorganic. Their pop would buzz and whir – the raw materials would be smashed and smelted and come out all stainless.
Of course there are exceptions. For instance I have purposefully avoided talking about Arctic Monkeys, mainly because it would make my point look silly, but even today, Sheffield artists like Toddla T are taking pop and twisting it into all kinds of arch and silly electronic directions; it’s just that where Oakey and his league of humans ZX Spectrumized Bowie and Roxy, Toddla T is hotwiring Lenky’s desk and doing donuts round Safeways car park in it.
Can this really be down to Industry? Of course not, but I like these faintly ludicrous ideas so I shall continue.
It was written somewhere or other that Manchester (sorry, I was bound to look for home advantage at some point) was destined to one day become dance music central because it was the first place to give their factory workers a whole weekend off. I am of course referring to those days still described as Madchester. Crazy eh, those 24 hour party people packing themselves into Blackburn’s warehouses to be pummeled by repetitive beats? Mad. Well, according to those who would go along with the above hypothesis, not so crazy at all, it was simply a natural progression from being crushed in cotton mills by heavy machinery.
Hmmm.
Probably a little closer to reality is another theory that makes the case that, as the north west already had it’s Northern Soul scene, there was a ready made culture of drug-fuelled punters dedicated to flinging themselves around all night to fast, black, dance music from the American mid-west. Perhaps this is true, for even if Mike Pickering does remember playing to a Manchester crowd that asked him why he was playing ‘that homo music’, it is without question that Manchester’s clubbers did generally cotton on to the sound of Chicago House long before the rest of the country.
Of course, I am not talking about everyone in Manchester here. And when I write of the ‘sound’ of cites, I am aware that the majority of young people listen to shit R&B, but that doesn’t make shit R&B that city’s ‘sound’. I suppose when I am speaking of the ‘sound’ of a city I am referring to whatever alternative scene becomes large enough to break with the homogeny of the time. At that time, most Mancunians (I should really say Lancastrians, because it didn’t just happen in the city limits – but I am loathe to include Cheshire no matter how factually correct it is) were still listening to Robert Palmer. But so was most of the country. However, that band of Hacienda-ites and mill town ravers were a big enough, non-mainstream contingent to be justifiably referred to as the ‘sound’ of that region. They made it distinct from anywhere else. If we are to believe the ‘Northern Soul’ theory, it seems this was because this pocket of the north west of England was already a place such music could find a home from home – House Music just had to move in; the place was fully furnished. It’s only a pity that the landlord didn’t keep the place maintained…
This has been a rather long-winded way to bring me to back to the question I am really here to ask: Sheffiled bleeped, Manchester jacked, Newport ‘Kerrangs!’ Why?
I moved to Newport a couple of years ago now, having lived a while in Cardiff and before that in various places around the UK, but never had I lived in a place with such a penchant for (punk?) rock. It certainly wasn’t the shuffling, monkey-walking indie-rock of Manchester – this was real dye your hair black and get tattoos ROCK MUSIC WITH PAAAAAAIN (and skateboards).
Don’t get me wrong, just before I left Manchester kids had started ironing their hair and wearing girl’s jeans too, but the Newport thing seemed to have much deeper roots (insert another hair-based pun here). The Manchester ‘Moshers’, as they were known then, seemed to just be watching a bit too much MTV for me to take the shift in cultural focus seriously; they just looked like they didn’t want to tidy their bedrooms. Contrary to this, when I got to Newport, there was a real sense of some kind of history – like (Punk?) Rock Music was the ‘sound’ of this city.
So, you’ll all know better than me: How did that happen? Is there some ridiculous theorizing to be done as there has been in Manchester and Sheffield? There are steel works in Newport – why didn’t it bleep too? There’s a docks here, why didn’t it sound like Liverpool? Actually, when the football is on, it does sound like Liverpool – something else I find difficult to understand.
I suppose what I’m doing is asking you for your opinion. It might never happen again so do take this opportunity to enlighten me. Why?
And not just the people of Newport. You Bristolian’s might also want to explain why your city is so predisposed to soundsystem culture and horse tranquilizers? Cardiff – why is your hair so bad? People of Bath, I have visited your city once and it is very pretty – what does it sound like and why?
In fact, wherever you’re from, why’s that sound? Put me straight.
Vivers
15/07/2009
I’m blaming my hair on a mixture of precipitation and genetics
JohnnyTNT
15/07/2009
As far as Cardiff goes, it seems that man has no idea how cardiff “sounds”. Its very diverse. Maybe he is still living in the 1990′s in terms of a “scene”. What is a “scene”? To me it only seems to describe a bunch of youngsters mindlessly following a trend or type of music to escape for the shittness of day to day boring life.
What about how a city really sounds. Like if you walk around and listen to its sounds, accents and ambiences and listen to every bit of live music and band you can find. Explore all avenues of an area.
It doesnt have to have major impact on society to be worth a listen or worth going to see live.
Newport is different, but guarenteed there are some unexplored corners of Newport.
However I would ask the question “Why do people, particularly music involved in the music industry(otfen not practicing musicians, producers or creatives), still love the same old shit and live by nostalgia when things have changed?” rather than “why does your city sound like this?”
gaz
15/07/2009
I’d say when it comes to heading out to see bands, Newport folk have always preferred a night out boozing to a night out on drugs. They have very little time for any kind of pretentiousness or introspection too which probably holds some bands back from trying anything softer or too experimental. Throw a bit of anti-establishment socialism into the mix and there’s your punk rock breeding ground and it only takes one genuine band to inspire loads of shit imitators.
I suppose you could say that attitude is a legacy of the docks/steelworks culture but other working class towns and cities with similar social issues have had more creative and innovative music scenes.
Even ten or fifteen years ago any venues playing anything in between TJ’s-inspired punk rock and Ritzy raving always used to have a really hard time. When the Bristol trip hop stuff was kicking off, unless I missed it, any attempts to try something like that in Newport died a pretty quick death even though there were some great nights in Swansea which has always had a similar attitude to Newport. The Newport band motto has to be “can you jump around to it while you’re smashed on cheap booze” – if you can you’re on to a winner.
Scotty
15/07/2009
Wowsers, actual comments. Thank you all.
Vivers – I too suffer from poor genes when it comes to hair. This is nothing to be ashamed of. It was a silly comment and I take it back. Cardiff has wonderful hair – certainly much better hair than me.
Gaz – The method of ‘stimulation’ is one that should definitely be considered when thinking of why certain places sound like they do.
JohnnyTNT – I’ll try to respond to your points as I understand them but it almost feels like there has been another comment up here that you have responded to and has since been removed as I don’t recognise very much of what you are talking about in my original post. If this is the case, the whole of the rest of what I am about to say is a nonsense and ignore it. If not, let me try my best to work this out:
“As far as Cardiff goes, it seems that man has no idea how cardiff “sounds”.”
I presume by “that man” you are talking about me. If you are talking about ‘man’ as in ‘mankind’, I apologise in advance for monumental arrogance in mistaking a slight against myself for one against humanity as a whole. However if you do mean me, then yes, you are quite right, I have no idea how Cardiff sounds. This would be why I asked the question the article poses in the first place.
“What is a “scene”? To me it only seems to describe a bunch of youngsters mindlessly following a trend or type of music.”
Well I agree. I’m not speaking of a scene though. The ‘sound’ I am talking about is that noise which makes a city distinct from it’s neighbours, which gives it a certain sonic identity – musically, that is. If this identity is one of ‘diversity’, fair enough. There is a good case to be made for Cardiff being one of the few genuinely successfully ‘diverse’ cities in the UK – perhaps that is reflected in its sound. Who knows? Certainly not me.
“What about how a city really sounds. Like if you walk around and listen to its sounds, accents and ambiences and listen to every bit of live music and band you can find. Explore all avenues of an area.”
That’s not what this post is about. Of course all of these things, plus the way a city looks, its pubs, food, smell, traffic jams – all of these things make a city what it is. This post is just trying to focus on a small part of that whole – it’s music. Believe me, this is just a matter of focus; I am not ignorant to these other aspects of a city’s identity, just ignored them so this post didn’t become a book.
“It doesn’t have to have major impact on society to be worth a listen or worth going to see live.”
Agreed. But I don’t remember making the point that it does.
“Newport is different, but guarenteed there are some unexplored corners of Newport.”
Unexplored corners that are not different?
“Why do people, particularly music involved in the music industry(otfen not practicing musicians, producers or creatives), still love the same old shit and live by nostalgia when things have changed?”
Again, I don’t fully get what you are talking about here – or who. At the risk of, once again, thinking the whole world revolves around me, I’m going to suppose you are saying that I’m living in the past or that I’m on some ‘it was better in the olden days’ tip. I’m actually going to defend myself on this one because at no point do I ever claim the superiority of an era of music or an area of the country. I make it very plain this is not a competition but a post very much wanting to discover a few things about a subject which I know nothing about. As it stands JohnnyTNT, your response has left me exactly where I started.
InteriorMonologue
15/07/2009
I’m from Cwmbran, I grew up going to gigs and drinking in Newport, I now live in Cardiff, live with a guy in a band and socialise regularly with people in Cardiff’s ‘scene’.
In short, Newport has more of a ‘sound’, Cardiff has more of a ‘scene’. I fucking love Cardiff as you get Future Of The Left, Los Campesinos!, Attack + Defend, Threatmantics, Circa Regna Tonat, Victorian English Gentlemens Club, Kutosis and many many more watching one another’s gigs and drinking together in Dempseys on a Saturday night without sounding anything alike.
Newport is a nightmare at times to put gigs on but has much more of a heritage. Lets go all football and call Newport Liverpool in that it has a history but maybe has a way to go to claim top honours these days whereas Cardiff is Chelsea – shitloads of people from different places making life interesting without having a lot of history.
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
Hi Scotty,
All valid points totally, I was a bit obscure with the post. I have been lugging myself around Cardiff to all corners for almost 20 years now to see as much live music as I can fit in and there really isnt a common thread. Its very diverse and I think putting a “scene” or focusing on certain types of bands only excludes other just as talented acts whether they be of any genre of music other than pop or alternative which is kind of mainstream in some cases. But I see your point. If you had to pick a sound of Cardiff, what would it be.
Still too hard to say, If your in the soul crew in the 80′s and support city it woudl probably be soul music and local soul, funk and reggae to you, If your in the rock Clwb Ifor circles, it would maybe a mash of alt rock , whimsical pop and whatever else. If your one of the Toucan crowd it may be singer songwriter, world music etc etc. If you mix in the clubbing scene, it may be lamerica, house music, vocal house etc. Further to this Cardiff now has quite a vibrant asian music scene, with many indian and bengali musicians creating music together with producers to create a variety of things.
Unforntunately im suspecting if you asked everyone who is involved in promoting and going to music related nights you would probably get the main “scene” in Cardiff as the L’america, house sound.
But to me that isnt the music scene here. The Cardiff music scene really is about lots of people doing the most random types of music and styles and crossing them over in the corners of the city. They pop up all over the place in all forms, genres and formats if you really look around, get out there, go to the holes and all the venues and dont stay in one particular circle.
The buety fo Cardiff is that its sound really is a mish mash, particularly for a relatively small city. I suspect the future will bring some great things if these people begin to work together.
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
I also forgot to say that the other great thing about Cardiff is the amount of people actually making music. Seems to be much more than any other city ive lived in for its size. The problem is there doesnt seem to be anywhere near the platform or enthusiasm from the public in relation to the talent and creativity going on here.
Tourist at Home
16/07/2009
Agree with the above person about Cardiff – loads of students and people who weren’t born here all mixing, so probably difficult for one ‘sound’ to emerge, but a great lot of jumbled up ideas from around the place.
As for pure Cardiff only talent – there was mainly R’nB ( snatch it back, red beans and rice,fire down below ) and soul bands ( ACAB,MAdassa ) when I was a lad.
Tourist at Home
16/07/2009
Here’s a reply I did earlier from a nother site – I haven’t editted it as I’ll have to get shot down by my own thoughts.
Not sure I agree with most ot the original post – I feel that a couple of similar bands are picked up on e.g. Funeral FAF,Lost Prophets and then all similar South Wales bands get picked up ( like kids in glass house ) and create a ‘sound’ with the vast majority of unsounding bands ignored.
We’re only talking small numbers.I just think it’s luck that ‘creates a scene’, Camden scene,Norwich scene,Bristol scene…..I just think it’s journalists talking it up at the right time.The Charlatans were signed when they only had a few songs people were tripping over themselves to buy into Madchester.
However,point taken about what people like in an area – I’d agree with Newports punk scene ( mohicans with moustaches )and South Wales ‘heaviness’ in general. And Bristol still has it’s cider punks,studs n’ all.
And what has Manchester done in the last 15 years ?
Scotty
16/07/2009
Cheers Interior Monologue – I will say football analogies are a dangerous road to travel. We could now be stoking two separate pride bonfires!
If I can be serious for a minute though, I am concerened this could rapidly turn into exactly what I didn’t want it to turn into: a competetive ‘my city is better than your city’ thing. To avoid this, I’m going to try to distill the three points from those made so far that might take this conversation somewhere a little more interesting.
1) My original point. It might not have been made clear enough but here it is as clear as I can say it: Why do certain areas have a certain sound? Is there a natural affinty, something in the water? Or is it promotter/club/record shop/media led? My original point of interest was why certain places take on certain sounds, not whether they are good or bad. I’m trying to purposefully avoid personal taste here.
2) And this has come out of points made so far: If a city doesn’t have a sound – why doesn’t it? Is this a good or bad thing? Can the idea of a ‘sound’ be limiting or is it important in terms of ‘heritage’? Is the idea of a ‘sound’ just a media myth anyway?
3) Can a whole city have bad hair?
None of this is meant to be confrontational, just an exchange of ideas.
Tourist at Home
16/07/2009
I don’t know about civic pride here, but as a proud Cardiffian I always preferred seeing bands in Newport as I thought the atmosphere was better and without the fighting you used to get in Cardiff, so from that point of view their City is better than mine.
Tourist at Home
16/07/2009
City sound and media myth – well i can tell you one experience. Remember Grebo in the 80s,centred around Leicesters Bomb Party ( originally ), followed by Gaye Bykers and Crazyhead. Well i was a student in Leicester during this period and really the only people into it were those in the band and their mates say 20 people tops.
But if you read the music papers at the time you’d have thought the whole of Leicester was moving this way instead of S’Express which seemed to be more common.
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
he he.
I get you but I think only people who live or have lived in Cities can actually know so some opinions on whats good and bad about the city will inevitably come out. Its got absolutely zero to do with whos city is the I have no intention whatsoever of being confrontational in my last post.
It seems like to me that you primarily want an “academic” debate about socio-economic and intellectual takes looking at music in cities from an objective and historical view rather that people drawing from experience. In my opinion a debate should have both.
Not for once did I think or intend to big up Cardiff, just merely talked about it, take away the last few lines your without personal taste. I feel like I have mentioned responses to most of those questions.
The reason it hasnt got a sound is as ive said, its quite random, and its a good thing in my view. (You ask for a personal view on this issue)
As for football, the docks, soul crew and music it was a very valid and very Caaaaaaardiff musical era that some would argue was when Cardiff had a “scene”
Cardiff doesnt really have a sound overall. People can only talk from thier experience. Why doesnt it have a sound? no idea, maybe people cant be bothered, or maybe they dont all jump on bandwagons or maybe its just eclectic.
Is the idea of a ’sound’ just a media myth anyway?
I would say so in some cases, in others its clearly everywhere due to many factors, fashion, economy and so on
cardiff. main music to the masses is probably house, r an b – Is this a good thing? subjective
Can a whole city have bad hair?
No
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
P.S. I think in general a city having a “sound” is a media myth. Maybe there are exceptions when there is an epidemic.
grace
16/07/2009
Hey you whats that sound everybody look whats going down.
Scotty
16/07/2009
Quite a lot to get through here – all good points. First Johnny TNT and the idea of ‘exclusion’ due to ‘sounds’ or scenes. I think this can very much be the case. As Tourist At Home has said regarding the ‘Grebo’ thing (and it’s great to have some real, on the ground personal experience of these things rather than the second hand slant most of us get) it only takes 20 mates, some of whom are well connected, to make a scene happen. There are many apocryphal tales of such things happening and most NME type hype can usually be sourced to at least one of the band members drinking with one of theat rag’s ‘journalists’. Equally some great music is then lost beneath the shouting.
The disparate ‘tribes’ of a city – it’s football fans, it’s dance music lovers, its rockers, and their differing perspectives of the same streets is really interesting to look at – and equally why one becomes the dominant voice. Perhaps it’s purely a media thing as you both suggest but it is still odd when an ‘epidemic’ happens, to nick JohnnyTNTs metaphor. Something like the orbital raves round the M25 were the cause of a media frenzy rather than the other way around. In fact, media coverage killed them. They still happened despite this though, people for some reason seemed to be collectively ready for them. Why?
I also take on board the view that eclectic tastes in a city make for great music. I myself will genuinely have a listen to anything and my home town has a yet another mythology on how it got exciting all of a sudden in the late 80s based upon the squatting of certain areas of town and the sharing of those squatter’s record collections. That’s why people were ready to listen to anthing and to take Gaz’s earlier point – yeah, it had a whole lot to do with ecstasy too!
Still, even though we all love a nice big melting pot, can a ‘sound’ sometimes be galvanising for a city – can the idea of a local sound provide this ‘platform’ and ‘public enthusiasm’ that is apparently lacking in some parts?
As for the charge of being a bit academic about this – I hold my hands up. Part of what I am trying to do is get to the bottom of what creates a vibrant and charged music scene and I hinted in my original post that although these ‘academic’ theories are fun (well for sad bastards like me) they are very likely utter bollocks. I’m sure there are those of you out there who know much better than any of these theories the answer to the question above.
Scotty
16/07/2009
P.S – Have only just noticed that I am pulling a very stupid face on that photo. Whoever chose that one – thanks.
InteriorMonologue
16/07/2009
I’ve just read a load of comments at once so a lot to digest. To JohnnyTNT – to link a couple of your Cardiff points, was Lamerica not founded by an ex Soul Crew bigwig? I guess a case of someone growing up being involved in a scene, expanding their musical taste and having a hand in creating a new scene altogether.
Very good point about Cardiff being a melting pot, I’m only talking about Newport and Cardiff here because they’re scenes I have first hand experience of but on the whole, bands in Newport tend to come from Newport and be influenced by their surroundings and what’s gone before them. Cardiff band members tend to come from all over the place. I went to see Future Of The Left and Los Camps in London last year and someone said to me that it was great to have two Welsh bands playing an NME show in London. It was, but of the 10 members involved, only one was actually Welsh!
An earlier point about Newport and beer is valid too. There are not many cities (or town as it was then) that you can frequent a venue watching bands in your formulative years and never hold a pint glass. Cans of Red Stripe still make me smile. Thank you TJs.
I think that to a certain extent, Newport was galvanised by the ‘New Seattle’ tag in the nineties, unfortunately, once the initial wave of bands had gone, nobody replaced them and people lost interest. Which brings up another question – why do scenes die?
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
Interior Monologue. Very good points, im with you on that, especially about the only one of them actually being welsh, very interesting. Is this coincidence? or the circles they hang in? or because they have a better idea or care more about whats mainstream and what makes it?
was Lamerica not founded by an ex Soul Crew bigwig? I dont think so, but may have. I cant see the link myself, good honest soul music, honesty and openess(as well as fighting) and dancing to posing and pills.
Maybe though, money spinner and I suppose if coke became the drug of choice then people change
JohnnyTNT
16/07/2009
and poins taken scotty. It is an interesting subject. I will try not to get pissed off about the Cardiff scene or big it up.
London is obviously one of the most random places in the world. But thats surely down to population
InteriorMonologue
16/07/2009
I’m running the risk of pissing off the people of Newport here but I think people that go to Uni in Cardiff are more likely to carry on living there when they finish than those going to Uni in Newport. Bands stay together and hone the sound of their band that started with influences from different people from different places.
I mentioned this topic in the pub last night while out with a few people in bands and interestingly they thought that Cardiff’s comradery stemmed from the fact that all the bands practice in Music Box and get to mingle on a regular basis, talk about each other’s bands and listen to what each other are doing.
pixieglas
25/07/2009
i live in cardiff. i used to have a job that would have me trying to recommend stuff for out of towners (of all tastes and styles) to do and reflecting on that always made me really proud of cardiff. most weeks there is an amazing gig or some great event and within that week most days i can fill my diary with stuff to do (my facebook “events coming up” list is a headache-inducing smorgasbord of tempting morsels). sometimes its hard to try and organise a night in! cardiff has some great bands based here: gindrinker, the gentle good, veg club, islet, right hand left hand (indeed the many projects of mr rhodri viney) future of the left, cymbient, truckers of husk, sweet baboo, spencer mcgarry season, joy of sex, alex dingley band, cate le bon, le b, meinz heinz, picture books in winter… i’m probably missing loads out, they are just the ones i can think of right now! we get to see them and many fantastic touring bands from all over the world due to some fantastic promoters: loose, peppermint patti, swn (nee forecast) and the scene is supported by the get-together spots such as spillers records, dempseys, clwb ifor bach and chapter. i’ve watched bands form over a pint due to the wealth of talent and support here. i am so amazed that all this goes on in the city i happen to live in, it happens in other places but due to maybe a lack of ambition or lack of a buzz about a place bands get lost on the way. the only gripe i have is that the council seem to be running things completely unaware of how uniquely buzzing cardiff’s music scene is. we’ve lost two big music venues in the past 5 years and gained two stadiums, a massive white elephant shopping centre and a tonne of unsellable yuppie flats.
as far as a “sound” goes, many bases are covered, i don’t know that there is one identifiable “sound”, like manchester had baggy. the twee indie gigs are always well attended, a lot of post-rock goes on, boogiez always seemed popular, there seem to be a lot of goth kids about but then there are a lot of house and r’n'b flyers up everywhere and indie electro stuff always seems to go down well (but not always find a successful venue, it seems).
pixieglas
25/07/2009
just to add, i’m really glad that this site exists because i am learning more about newport and bristol’s music scenes and reguarly go to gigs in those cities now, something i rarely did before. i think its really important that there is a dialogue between cities because we can help each other. if a promoter is struggling for an audience in bath for example, having connections with people in other cities may bring in that audience.